[00:00:00] Andrew Goble: That is our approach that has always worked, do it wrong, be embarrassed of what you did three months ago, try it again, do it a little better. Good things happen.

[00:00:07] Jason Wong: You know what they say? If you don't look back at what you've built and cringe at it, then you started too late.

[00:00:12] Andrew Goble: I feel direct consumer for a long time the benefit was margins. And the real benefit is getting to be the sales person in a hundred stores at once.

[00:00:31] Jason Wong: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the building blocks podcast. Today I'm joined by my good friend, Andrew Goble, who is a co-founder and co CEO of Jambys and who I think makes the most comfortable clothing that I could wear all day. Welcome to the show.

[00:00:47] Andrew Goble: Thank you for having me what's going on.

[00:00:49] Jason Wong: I've been working on this podcast trying to try to figure out what I'm trying to do with it. And I'm still discovering that it's, it's a way for me to [00:01:00] talk to my friends, have fun and also teach at the same time, during the three things that I . And you're one of the first few people I thought of. I, since we last met in New York, what, what was supposed to be a 20 minute coffee chat turned into an hour and a half?

[00:01:15] Jason Wong: It just, I love talking to you. And I said, I need to get Andrew on a show.

[00:01:20] Andrew Goble: Yeah, no, I love it too. When you, when you kind of tell me about the concept, I feel , getting to talk with you and other founders, it, it's just so much. One, it's fun. It gives me energy and two, I feel you come away with , things you think about the next day.

[00:01:37] Andrew Goble: And two months later, I'll , remember a snippet of something that you were working on that helps. It's a nice mix. I feel , as you know, and as, as you would create a lot of this content, there's so many tactics and stuff to learn and software and stuff to download, but sometimes you're just working out the basic things of a business.

[00:01:59] Jason Wong: It [00:02:00] does get overwhelming and there is so much coming at you, it does get overwhelming. And that's what I about talking to founders, because I can really get deeper into the way that they think, how they approach things. When you just see a tweet saying you need to do X, Y, and Z, that lacks so much context.

[00:02:17] Jason Wong: You don't know what their business is, who they're selling it to you. But when I get to talk to you for the next 20 minutes, I can really dive deep into how you built Jambys.. And for those of you that don't know about Jambys, Jambys makes an entire new category of what they call performance inactive wear, which is what I thought was a really funny way to describe your category because everyone else is going after active performance wear, and you're , you know what, we're going to go the opposite way, inactive wear. Can you tell me a little bit more about , how you thought about this? What led to the idea of let's make something brand new.

[00:02:53] Andrew Goble: Yeah. I mean, I think, something , it was something that evolved over time. The, the basic [00:03:00] concept concept was so much more simple when we, started it was my co-founder, jack. He and I went to college together, worked in totally different types of jobs for three years.

[00:03:09] Andrew Goble: And, when I caught up, he was I've been thinking of making boxers with pockets since I was 10 and I'm doing it no matter what. There was no vision, no performance inactive wear, no celebrate chilling. Didn't even have a name. It was let's put pockets in boxers and something is going to work there. The internet exists. If we can't find a thousand people, then whatever, let's go do something else.

[00:03:32] Andrew Goble: And I think what we found from, from making that and getting it into people's hands was just by creating something weird in this space we got a chance to , see what it's when you do lounge wear that isn't sexy, that isn't your old high school sweats, that isn't lounge wear that's also active wear that's also first date clothes that's also start-up clothes. It was , you can only wear these orange boxers with pockets in one place and that's at home. And I think what we saw is , [00:04:00] people had a real emotional connection to that. They only wore these clothes when they were at home and mostly when they weren't working. That was an energy we wanted to ride into. It's , oh, we just want to make clothes that make people feel happy at home. And since then it's grown a lot from there, but it was, the idea of this thing that's a little bit in between athleisure and lounge wear.

[00:04:22] Andrew Goble: It's kinda brought to us by the customers and you're , when that happens, that's always a hundred times better than whatever idea I come up with looking at my computer all day. So it's, it's been fun to develop that over the past year and kind of see it take off in the way we hoped it would.

[00:04:38] Jason Wong: Yeah. The product itself just, it's so easy to talk about. When I'm wearing this at home and my friends are over I'm , dude, do you want to see boxers with pockets? I'm actually wearing it right now. It's the one with the purple strap is I think this is v1. , this is before the redesign I have. I have I think six pairs.

[00:04:56] Jason Wong: And it's just so cool. I tell my [00:05:00] girlfriend boxers with pockets. And I gave her a pair of mine too. And she's , holy crap, cause girls don't get pockets. Yeah. Girls are lacy.. I mean, they , they make non-lacy ones now, too. And, it's still not giving you the feeling of an oversized t-shirt vibe.

[00:05:20] Jason Wong: And I felt you guys were able to do that. I love wearing oversized t-shirts. Cause when I'm at home, I don't want to feel anything's holding me back. So I buy an extra, extra large shirt and I feel when I wear Jambys I'm able to do the same thing without buying two size larger.

[00:05:35] Andrew Goble: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel that a lot of work has gone on the fabric side and making that happen, but something that's just awesome about , I think our first instinct when we were talking about this is some of some clothes out there can be worn anywhere and for anything. And so you're oh, it's weird that it's just for one use, but it ended up being a feature, not a bug for us that what can you do if [00:06:00] this fabric doesn't need to be worn while working out? It can get really stretchy. It can get really soft. You can get that I'm wearing a blanket kind of feeling. And it, I don't think you could do that and also have it work for running a marathon, but we're like that's great. I got, I've got, my one shirt for running a marathon. If I ever do that. And I won't. But it's out there.

[00:06:20] Jason Wong: Considering how much time we spend at home. It's like that data on how much of your life is actually spent sleeping, it makes sense to create product in this category. And I was surprised that not a lot people think about that or, you know, they make pajamas, but they think that's really it. And you're like let's take it further. Let's make something fun. And I'm so glad from a customer of yours that you made that. But I'm also in awe in the way that you've been able to build this brand and the voice that you gave to it. I understand you're the full, the only full-time marketer on this team.

[00:06:54] Andrew Goble: Right. Everyone else either works. You know , the team members we've built in addition to Jack and I have all [00:07:00] been on the product development and apparel side. And I feel why we want to do that as it takes a long time to make unique, great clothes.

[00:07:08] Andrew Goble: You know, if you're grabbing a blank hoodie and putting a logo on it, that's, that's a different brand and a lot of those are great. For us it was , we want to make new, weird fabrics, new, weird products. That's gotta happen first. So when we were like how's this going to work with you know, a smaller team? The brand voice ended up looking a lot like my personal voice. You know, I worked as a writer for GQ for and as a content writer at a few startups.

[00:07:34] Andrew Goble: And so we were like let's just do Andrew's voice. And now it's not that. But at first that was the way to do it. And it's like how are we going to photograph this? The same way I used to photograph stuff. What's the voice? Pretty close to the voice I write. We sacrifice a lot of that crisp. There was no brand book. There's no brand guidelines. The logo was made by my friend for 600 bucks. And a lot of it makes me cringe looking back, [00:08:00] but it was so we could invest in the product. And now that those things are starting to come into play. New versions of the product are out. We're able to step on that and work with more people and kind of do a better job., but something that was fun about Jambys is that by shaping it around what we could do, we were able to do it with, with a pretty small team, which, is great.

[00:08:24] Andrew Goble: And I, I think I'm glad we did it that way. There were, while we were doing it, I would be up at night being, I know there's a better creative director out there. I know there's a better brand director out there, a better graphic designer, photographer. And it was like: kind of got to earn the right to work with great creative people. And a lot of that was just, well, what can we do?

[00:08:44] Andrew Goble: You know, there's a lot of taglines that just didn't make sense. They were kind of funny. But they got us to the point where we were, we could do that and, yeah, that, I feel that that is our approach that has always worked. Do it. Do it wrong. Be [00:09:00] embarrassed at what you did three months ago. Try it again. Do it a little better and, and good things happen.

[00:09:05] Jason Wong: You know what they say said, if you don't look back at what you've built and cringe at it, then you started late. It's a good testament that you, that you knew. You had a conviction that you wanted to do something.

[00:09:16] Jason Wong: It doesn't matter. It wasn't polished or perfect. You just did it. And that's really what got you to where you're at.

[00:09:21] Jason Wong: And another thing that r eally impressed me was looking at the way that you structured your team compared to how I see other people structure their team, even my own team in particular. Jambys is a very product heavy, product focused company. And so most of the resources gets put into the product and the product doesn't have any physical branding on it. The product branding is the unique fabric that literally nothing else in my closet compares to. When I felt that fabric I'm , I'm like that's Jambis. I didn't even have to look at the logo.

[00:09:51] Jason Wong: Whereas for a lash brand like ours, we have to show it because it's very hard to see that we're different. Or for another, [00:10:00] like a moisturizer or a cleanser, you, they need that branding and they need a bigger marketing team. An eight to two ratio of marketing and branding, because most of what actually sells them is the marketing. Whereas you guys let the product sell itself, which I love. I was impressed.

[00:10:18] Andrew Goble: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're probably too impressed. I feel that painted in a picture where it's , you know, all those tweets that are great products sell themselves. It's , no, we still had to figure it out. But I think exactly what you're saying.

[00:10:30] Andrew Goble: You're like I look back and I'm like, wow, we could have brought on a bigger team. And you know, ads could have been better. Could have worked better. Google shopping could have, should have been run by someone who was not looking into YouTube, how to run Google shopping. I. I'm glad now I think you're kind of the version of you're saying that, that I feel clicks for me is, product is kind of that coefficient of a brand.

[00:10:54] Andrew Goble: And now we have a base to go do that and do it bigger. Right [00:11:00] now I'm trying to find, , I feel I have a presentation or just a Google doc with this vision of how could we do these big celebrate chilling stunts, commercials, billboards, customer contests, whatever.

[00:11:16] Andrew Goble: And there's this huge gap between what I know we should do now and where we're at. So in some ways starting this way has been I'm kind of at day one or day two. I don't know how you'd use that metaphor, but of building this team and working. So I'm definitely glad we did it in that order, but it. Just like everything, it's always a, trade-off.

[00:11:37] Jason Wong: The grass is always greener. I'll tell you that.

[00:11:41] Andrew Goble: Where I look at, where I look at what you're building and it's like you've you build teams. You guys are always aligned in what you're doing. You always work so fast. Somehow you do things nine times faster.

[00:11:53] Andrew Goble: Cause you know how to work with great people.

[00:11:58] Jason Wong: I'll tell, I'll tell you what. They break [00:12:00] faster. And sometimes they're not at the standard that I want. There's, there's always a trade off. And so , you know, we can always look at each other and be , damn, I wish we did that. At the end of the day, we get, we got to where we're at because of the methodology that we follow.

[00:12:13] Jason Wong: And I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it. I think every business different types of structure and, you know, you guys came out really well and you know, that's all there is to it. Right. I want to talk a little bit more about finding your right customer in a category that wasn't really tapped into because when I got into lashes or when I built other beauty brands, I kind of know who I'm building it for.

[00:12:42] Jason Wong: And usually it's right, because I've seen so many people do it already. But when you're building this new category where you guys kind of coined the term of performance inactive wear I'm kind of curious about was it difficult finding the right customer in the beginning? Did you make some mistakes, having assumptions of who, who [00:13:00] you're selling it to, but actually discover that it's another type of person?

[00:13:03] Andrew Goble: Yeah. We made every mistake you could make in short. But I feel the, you know, for a lot of people and still for a lot of Jambys customers, I think that performance inactive wear this building, this new category, it's like the products that you know, are coming out in 12 to 18 months, reflect that the brand initiatives that are happening in six months reflect that.

[00:13:25] Andrew Goble: I think there's still a lot of people that are , what is Jambys? Loungewear? And your brand ultimately is not what you think it is. It's what they think it is. And I think that's how we see it. We see a lot of people who are coming and they're like I want loungewear. I feel our best customer early on was a guy right out of college who was like boxers? Pockets? Hell yeah, I'm in. And you're like oh wow. I didn't even finish telling you what, what we do.

[00:13:50] Andrew Goble: And then I think what we've learned is ,you know, half of our traffic is it's male/ female, almost 50/ 50 split, kinda depending on the month, but usually right [00:14:00] there. And I think what we've seen is there's a much bigger market of people who are currently wearing something else at home. And so that's a lot of how this category is started is do we want to replace other people's loungewear? No, we just, whatever they're wearing at home, we want to make the better version of it. And I think that's because so much of that is active wear, especially in America. I think people, I was, I was pretty surprised to look at other countries and see that wearing your sweats or wearing clothes designed to look like they're from marathons at home is not always the case.

[00:14:36] Andrew Goble: Most people hang out in underwear or just wear their normal clothes until they go to bed. I feel what we saw with American customers when we were starting talking to them and wondering, what else were you considering when you were buying Jambys? Why did you buy Jambys? It was often that we were replacing something that they were wearing at home that wasn't loungewear.

[00:14:58] Andrew Goble: And that's where I think we saw, [00:15:00] oh, there's room for this. And poking into that deeper this, you know, took us a long time to figure it out, but I feel like people love their loungewear. It's one of the product categories where satisfaction is very high. And the issue I think is , there's this buying problem. Where buying it feels like you want to buy clothes that make you work out more or make you look more put together at the office. You can get a promotion or help you look put together on your first date. Loungewear kind of promises to make you look lazier and do less. I think where Jambys finds something in the middle of that it's making people feel intentional about being at home.

[00:15:42] Andrew Goble: One thing I love about if I'm wearing my confetti hoodie right now? Could not wear it to a job if I didn't work at Jambys or to the gym. And so when I'm at home wearing it, I'm I chose to go home. I think of it as a little FOMO shield. It's like for me, I love being at [00:16:00] home when I'm not anxious about should I be doing that?

[00:16:02] Andrew Goble: Should I go be, should I still be at the office hustling? And when you're wearing a big, bright lavender leopard outfit, you kind of feel good about doing nothing. And so that, that buying problem that I think about a lot is, if we can make people feel good about being at home and not just pre-ordering dessert. Here's this thing that's going to arrive in five to seven days that's goona lower your, your goals for yourself. It's not no one actually, you know, thinks that way right now. Rest is a huge part of doing a lot with your life. Chilling out is a goal of mine. I'd love to do more sitting at home on my couch. So I think one thing that's definitely is a, is a tide that's kind of rose with Jambys and we started six months before, the pandemic.

[00:16:54] Andrew Goble: Around there. I think obviously the, we were telling people about [00:17:00] the five to nine is what we call it at that time after work the reality for most people now it's they could spend 23 hours a day in Jambys if they wanted to. There's a different reason. And there's a different value on your time at home.

[00:17:13] Andrew Goble: So that I think was something we wanted to build towards that. Now I think most of my friends , feel they don't need the push to be like oh, I should spend more time at home and value my downtime. I'm at home a lot. If there's something built just for this it's not hard for me to, to value that and invest in it.

[00:17:34] Andrew Goble: So yeah, it's one of those things where you try something. Something that's out of your control changes how people think and you just kind of provide the product then. You think nothing? No, no one is being convinced to spend more time at home by Jambys or less time at home. But , as those things change, we kind of build products that at least deliver on what our customer wants, which is to be comfortable at home.[00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Jason Wong: I really liked what you said about the five to nine idea, but also how slipping into Jambys really feels like you are going into a different stage of your day because a lot of people that go home and sometimes they don't change from their outside clothes and it just feels it's a continuation of their day. But this gives a break. When we changed into Jambs, I'm I am chilling now. In some way it comforts me. It took away the stress that I was thinking I'm no longer thinking about work. I'm no longer thinking about what I did in the day. I get home. I change into Jambys, and I know I'm relaxed. Nothing else bothers me. I, I would say it's the equivalent from what I understand girls say, when they say they get home and I'd take off their bra. I'm chilling. Do not text me, do not call me. I'm away.

[00:18:52] Andrew Goble: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I mean, I love that. I always love seeing you in the Christmas Stripe Jambys that I always send you in [00:19:00] July of whatever year. Yeah. But then. It's that feeling too. And I think what was funny is when we launched, was I expected the customers who already value their time at home, you know, people that play video games like me. They're already sitting. They're down for this. What we saw was the most, the highest emotional connection were people who had jobs where they still had to wear dress clothing. For them that switch was huge. That they went home and the first thing they did was take off their tie and go into their full Jambys outfit.

[00:19:35] Andrew Goble: And it was a full that 6:01. It's that's an awesome moment to be a part of. That is when a lot of people are their happiest. And to make a clothing that kind of matches to that is, it's something that we stumbled into. You know, this wasn't me sitting there with some great knowledge of how people operate.

[00:19:57] Andrew Goble: It was oh, you're wearing it that way. Oh, you think of Jambys [00:20:00] that way? I like it. Let's try, you know, bending some of the copy on the website. Oh, they like it. Let's try doing that more and more. And that's kind of the ITER of it. ---- However you say that word, iterative approach that we take.

[00:20:16] Andrew Goble: And sometimes it results in a lot of feeling silly, looking three months back. But I think, when you look 12 months back. Wow, we've grown a lot just because we let, kind of the customer's reaction to the product kind of guide what we do, what we develop. And I feel that's something that, I feel direct to consumer for a long time was, the benefit was margins. And I don't know if that was never true. Even from when I started, you know, that those days are over. But it's the real benefit is, imagine you're the person at your retail store that sees what people want to try on and what they switch [00:21:00] into. But you're getting every single person trying on your product, assessing it and looking at it, giving you something. You know, even if it's just leaving the website after 10 seconds. That's like walking into a store and being this isn't for me.

[00:21:13] Andrew Goble: So that getting to be the sales person in a hundred stores at once. And seeing what are they touching? What are they interesting in? What are they interested in? It lets you move really fast. You don't need a huge panel or surveys, or to call a thousand customers. You can call 10 of them, but you can look at the other 990 and just see how they engage with you.

[00:21:40] Andrew Goble: And I feel that's something that we're really starting to value with being all direct to consumer is Can someone who leaves the site after 10 seconds, also help us improve it for the next person? At the beginning we just looked at the five star reviews and I dunno, gave each other high fives.

[00:21:58] Andrew Goble: It was like oh wow, this is [00:22:00] real. People are buying this now. It's like everyone here is giving us something that can kind of either tell us we're on the right path or tell us to refine it or tell us to refine it for this certain product. Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. And we we've gotten a lot better than the last, you know, just this year at taking that data and turning into something that we actually use, not just I think we had five dashboards of data that I looked at and set up and then looked at twice. That wasn't useful. It was like oh, every month let's do a work session where we go through the hot jar and see what people actually do on the site.

[00:22:38] Jason Wong: I love that. I love that we're shifting this idea of DTC just being a better margin model or a high growth model, but really going back into the basics is that this is the opportunity for you to actually talk to your customer, to let them participate in evolving your brand and making it better.

[00:22:58] Jason Wong: You can't do that when you're [00:23:00] in 2000 retail stores. And that's why a lot of these larger brands stagnate because they no longer are able to get in touch with their customers. I love that you shifted your perspective.

[00:23:10] Andrew Goble: Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was a big shift and I feel that was a way. I was like in the early days of this business if we go try and be mini someone else, that's never gonna work. And I, I feel to, to not, do that, you have to be , what can we do starting now that a brand starting five years ago can't do? Because they can do almost everything else better than you. And for us it was oh, we can match changing attitudes about being at home. That's great. We also are direct to consumer. We can go take these bets on things and you, you know, if you come up with a new color way and you're Lululemon, you're probably putting it in all the stores. So there's a bet where there's at least [00:24:00] five of something in 500 stores.

[00:24:03] Andrew Goble: You really better know what that is. That could, that could be a huge issue. But for us, we started launching colorways where we'd have 200 of them. And just doing the boxers with pockets. And it felt man, even by the time we photograph this and I put it on the website, is this the best use of time?

[00:24:21] Andrew Goble: But your like when there's a huge success, you could jump on that and make more. And when it was a failure, you didn't cry. I mean, maybe, maybe I did a little light crying, but you never were... You get to do these things where you don't have to risk it all, you know, you can change a landing page headline and do it for a day.

[00:24:44] Andrew Goble: You don't have to change your storefronts whole thing, and see. Like you have these chances to really t ake risks that can't hurt you. And I think, especially in apparel where most of the brands that end up in trouble [00:25:00] do so because they took some big calculation on a new category and color way, they messed up sizing on a run. That inventory is, an issue.

[00:25:10] Andrew Goble: And for us we're , okay, maybe We'll miss out if we accidentally come up with the coolest pattern ever and 10,000 people are trying to buy it. We're going to miss that. But what we're going to protect is making 10,000 of something that no one wants and struggling to sell it. So we've always kinda been , what are we going to focus on selling? Whatever people are buying right now? That. They're telling us what to focus on.

[00:25:39] Jason Wong: Yeah. Cash is king, especially in apparel when you have, I don't know, five different SKUs per every color, five sizes per color. And then you have six colors, seven colors, it gets heavy. And so I love that you're approaching things in a little bit more risk averse way, which you didn't.

[00:25:56] Jason Wong: I think you need to do don't, don't [00:26:00] listen to a blanket statement of go wide, go bold and double down. Man, that's money out of our account. You need to be calculated.

[00:26:08] Andrew Goble: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have kind of a, I wouldn't say a hard and fast rule, but it's let's not have five things out there that if all five go bad, we're in bad mode.

[00:26:20] Andrew Goble: We're in a bad place. You're , let's, you know, we can take one, we can invest a little more in a video shoot than we have before because we have a new vision. Or we can come out with a print that it doesn't fit in the framework of what customers have already bought. But if you do all of those and take those all at the same time and they go wrong. One, you know, you have to, you have to figure that out and that that's painful for the business, but two, you stop taking any risks.

[00:26:46] Andrew Goble: And for us, we're that's, you don't make boxers with pockets. That never can happen in a big company because it's insane. I told ten of my friends. I remember two being like heck yeah, I'm [00:27:00] in and six being like I don't know. Which is , you know, the friendly way. If you and I had known each other at the time, you would have given me your feelings directly.

[00:27:12] Andrew Goble: But when a friend says, I don't know to you pitching a new business, that is , oh man. I don't know if that's going to work. But that if now we're in a place, you know, I think of the cozy cloak, the hoodie blanket that we made for the holidays. It was in my head, I knew what it could be.

[00:27:35] Andrew Goble: And when we launched it, the issue was not with what people had it. It was them not knowing whether it was a blanket hoodie or a hoodie blanket. I'd kinda missed that. Oh, it's really more of a blanket with the hood than a hoodie that's long. And that, that online, that was a huge recalibration for us.

[00:27:55] Andrew Goble: And because it was direct to consumer I could change it. I could film a little video [00:28:00] showing all of it, but also we hadn't put all of our eggs in the basket. Had I maybe done a better job or worked with a smarter marketer maybe we could have sold a hundred times that. But we were like let's do what we did with Jambys. Let it come in, see how people react to it. See if we can either change how we talk about the product or the product itself. And then we can make our Facebook ads and tell the world about it. But , because we didn't do that, it gave us this chance to really figure out what the product could be. And now it's been, it's fun now that four months in, there's, there's a lot of customers who - it's an open back because it's a blanket and a lot of them either just want it closed. So you're wow, great. It's the easiest product development. Either you want it to be basically a full body, long dress hoodie. We can, we can go make that happen. Easy [00:29:00] as that. Why make it any harder?

[00:29:02] Andrew Goble: But the people who really d it as is, you're like oh, those are two separate products.

[00:29:06] Andrew Goble: We couldn't have done that without selling it. And so I feel that I'm, I'm glad whenever we kind of take these little leaps. They're leaps of like we're launching it, we have ..To photograph it, but they're not sitting at the computer if we don't sell out today, we are done. If you're ever in that position, you end up doing things that are long-term bad for the business. You end up selling just black t-shirts cause that's the only thing that you can stomach the risk of.

[00:29:37] Andrew Goble: And so, yeah, that's something I love about direct to consumer is that you can still go out to a lot of people, but you don't have to go put it in a 500 different stores and train a thousand salespeople about the product. You can put it out there and the customer will tell you.

[00:29:56] Jason Wong: Really getting into the root of direct to consumer. [00:30:00] Exactly. I, I love the way you think about that. And Andrew, I will, I'll love to keep talking with you because there's so much we want to take in and I actually want to invite you on a second show down the line when you lauch some new products, just to share your thoughts on it.

[00:30:14] Jason Wong: But in the meantime, for all our listeners today. Where can we find you and where can we find Jambys at?

[00:30:22] Andrew Goble: Oh man, where can you find me? You can find me on Twitter. @andrewlgoble. That's pretty much anywhere I do anything. I'm always, always down for a DM there. I think, one of the reasons I feel you and I get along so well, is that I feel like when we first met, I was like you had mastered the tactics and had done it and were getting ready to do it with doe in a bigger way than you had before.

[00:30:50] Andrew Goble: And I was like didn't know how to set up a Shopify. So it's like I'm trying to go back now. And there is that, you know, that was not that long [00:31:00] ago. So I feel like people like that, that are listening here. My advice is to find people, not at the same stage as you, you were , and remain, an expert to, to my novice, but to get into people's DMs, send them whatever you're making.

[00:31:17] Andrew Goble: One, you make real friends that keep you crazy or keep you sane if you crazy, roughly. But two, I feel it makes it a lot more fun. I feel it pulls you away from the Excel sheet part of the business.

[00:31:30] Jason Wong: It makes

[00:31:30] Jason Wong: them more, it makes it less lonely. It's definitely a lonely journey for founders. And I appreciate our friendship.

[00:31:36] Jason Wong: I think this is a fairly long-term one because I can just go on and on and chat with you. There's so much we can dig in on. And, it's always a fun time. So thank you, Andrew. So, so much for coming on.

[00:31:49] Jason Wong: You just heard an episode of the building blocks podcast. If you liked what you heard subscribe below to keep hearing conversations that I have with brilliant marketers, founders, and innovators on how they built their best ideas.

[00:31:59] Jason Wong: Now, [00:32:00] we want to learn how you can turn your best ideas and build something massive out of it. Visit my website bbclass.co or follow my Twitter @eggroli.

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