[00:00:00] James Camp: Going from zero to one is going to be the most important thing for you, right? Because that's, you, you start with all the ownership. That's where most failures happen too is from zero to one. What I wanna help people do is like, look for websites that are already doing well. They're just under monetized.

[00:00:24] Jason Wong: Alrighty guys. We are back again with another episode here at the building blocks show. Today, I'm joined by a really special guest James Camp, um, who I actually had the fortune of running into at a house party in Beverly Hills, like a few months ago. I was like holy crap. You're much taller in real life.

[00:00:45] Jason Wong: James is a serial entrepreneur with three exits and what he calls a thousand failures, which I love because no one really talks about the failures. Um, thank you. Thank you

[00:00:55] Jason Wong: for coming on.

[00:00:56] James Camp: Thanks for having me, man. I, uh, it's, it's interesting when [00:01:00] the internet and real life worlds collide, like you said, we ran into each other at this house party in Beverly Hills and now, like, I feel like I actually know you. And so like, it makes it a lot easier to connect, through a Riverside, uh, chat. So thanks for having me, man.

[00:01:11] Jason Wong: Um, things are so easy to slip in like text conversations. Cause you don't get the tone, you don't get the, like the intent. And it's like finally getting me, I'm like, damn, this guy is cool.

[00:01:23] Jason Wong: I actually like, and we just talk for hours. The reason why I want to invite you to my show. And I'm doing a show where I'm interviewing incredible founders, operators and marketers to break down how they do things. And the things that I think you do the best and why I follow you on Twitter was flipping digital properties, which, you know, everyone's like, yeah, I do Facebook ads.

[00:01:44] Jason Wong: I'm an SEO specialist, but no one really talks about flipping digital assets. How would you even think about getting to that place?

[00:01:51] James Camp: I mean, so it was really just by chance. I think that like the, when you look at flipping. Um, it just comes from the context of like, [00:02:00] am I good at marketing? Right. Cause everyone's like, well, what do you do to flip these websites?

[00:02:02] James Camp: You just market. You're doing better marketing or better monetization. And so for years I did, um, I did marketing consulting for growth and for monetization. And then I would, and I spent a little bit of my life playing in mergers and acquisitions, and I looked at what people were doing with these larger private equity roll-ups and these sort of value-added PE deals.

[00:02:22] James Camp: And I thought, whoa, this is really an opportunity to do this a lot more. The first website I flipped (you know, I didn't think of it as website flipping back then) was, I dunno like 12 or 13 years ago, something like that. I mean, maybe more. Um, it's just, it's become really obvious that there's a really good opportunity, um, for like flipping these smaller niche content websites, um, and then a larger scale doing some e-commerce stuff as well.

[00:02:50] Jason Wong: And it's just easier to start from like one, rather than starting from zero. Like if, if something has momentum, you could scale up to two, you can scale up to three. Is that right?

[00:02:59] James Camp: A hundred percent. [00:03:00] Yeah. I mean, my thought is this is like going from zero to one is the largest sort of alpha that you'll gain. If you're looking at equity and you're talking about sort of getting the most out of your equity, going from zero to one is going to be the most important thing for you.

[00:03:12] James Camp: Right. Because that's, you, you start with all the ownership. Candidly though, that is where, when I talk about a thousand failures, that's probably a, uh, drastic under exaggeration, right? Like, um, is, uh, is that your... that's where most failures happen too is from zero to one. And so if you can take some, to your point, momentum, um, it's a lot easier to look at something and say, Hey, how do we make these small changes and make it better?

[00:03:34] James Camp: Um, than it is to say, like, how do we get the momentum from going from nothing? I think you can apply that to most things in life as well, to be straightforward.

[00:03:41] Jason Wong: Absolutely. I've I've always started brands from scratch. Every single brand I've done came from, I made the LLC, I made the bank accounts like that's early and I'll tell you, 99% of them failed and maybe the product wasn't right.

[00:03:55] Jason Wong: Or the market wasn't right. There just wasn't PMF. But the risk is so [00:04:00] high at that zero to one stage that it makes sense to optimize what's working. Um, I do want to get a little bit better understanding of like, how do you approach, what properties do you look at? Cause this kind of brings me back to like real estate, like when people like I'm gonna do a fixer upper, um, and, and fixed up, what are you looking for?

[00:04:19] James Camp: Sure. So I think that the, that the actual approach that I try to teach and preach about is a little bit different than sort of the approach I take myself these days. And that's just because I've had my hands dirty so many times, I'm a little more confident in what I can do for myself or someone like you can do.

[00:04:34] James Camp: But when you're sort of newer to this, I think you need to be a little less risky. So I did, I bought a - speaking of properties- I bought a house in 2020, like mid pandemic. I had just sold a strategy firm and I was like, I got a little money. Let me be a real estate investor. And I bought this house that was a total tear down, added a floor, added a bedroom, added a deck, added a bathroom, everything. Took it down to the studs. And it was the most work of my entire life for [00:05:00] the amount of capital that I risked.

[00:05:01] James Camp: And it was a total nightmare. Um, and so what I try and preach is that people shouldn't be doing the full tear down flips, and that's the same thing. We're not, I don't talk about buying distressed assets. We're not talking about things that are failing and falling apart. What I want to help people do is like, look for websites that are already doing well. They're just under monetized. So in terms of the, the housing, uh, you know, a metaphor, we're looking for like great houses in a great neighborhood that needs like a fresh coat of paint and maybe you need some new appliances. Right. And so instead of saying the house that is dilapidated, and we've got a tear down to the studs and build from scratch again, because again, again, there's more alpha, there's more to gain.

[00:05:40] James Camp: Um, but it's just infinitely riskier and infinitely harder unless you're someone like yourself or myself who has been doing, playing in this world for a long time. Um, it's easier to sort of take something that just needs like a new coat of paint. Like I said, some new appliances. And if we're talking about real estate raising the cap rate, right, like raising the rents for its costs [00:06:00] against its costs. And, um, and that's sort of what I preach.

[00:06:03] Jason Wong: What are some of the monetization channels that you see a lot of these properties have and what are some of the things that they're missing?

[00:06:11] James Camp: Sure. So I think a lot, what I talk about is content websites, right? And that's just because you, as an e-commerce founder can recognize the complexities of scaling an e-commerce brand.

[00:06:20] James Camp: And it's just the margin starts to make sense at scale. But it's really tough when you're a one person team and doing only a couple of thousand dollars a month in revenue in e-com: fulfillment, shipping, you know, uh, customer service, all the above. But one thing that I've realized is a lot of websites that are out there, passion project blogs, things like this.

[00:06:38] James Camp: They use the lowest hanging fruit in terms of monetization, which happens to be Ad Sense. And everyone knows Google. Everyone knows Ad Sense. So you placed one line of code in your website and you make money. It's great. It's beautiful. We've all done it. Candidly though, Ad Sense really is that lowest hanging fruits.

[00:06:52] James Camp: And I want to remind people that it is a broker. They are brokering ads between advertisers and you, a publisher, right? So they're taking like a 40% VIG on [00:07:00] that. So there's a great opportunity. I always tell people, you can see a website that uses Ad Sense. Check out something like Mediavine or Ezoic or Ad Drive, which are more like ad ops agencies.

[00:07:10] James Camp: I call them premium ad networks. They're not. But basically they set up things called like header bidding. So all these ad networks are bidding against each other for placement on your website. Um, they optimize for you. And then there's a great opportunity with affiliate marketing as well. And that's just going more direct to the advertiser and taking commission on what you sell.

[00:07:27] James Camp: And then I think if you really go at scale, what you're seeing en masse with the big, big, big brands and, uh, like big private equity deals is, uh, is, is connecting it to consumer packaged goods possibly. Right. And like you have these massive companies and SaaS's that are buying media brands that are buying these content brands and plugging them in, you know, you saw HubSpot by The Hustle.

[00:07:47] James Camp: Um, you know, Equinox has Furthermore, which is their magazine. Um, MedMen I think is Ember, which is their, you know, their magazine for the dispensary. So I think owning media, if you can own the backend of it back in monetization, um, can be [00:08:00] massive for everyone from, you know, mom and pops to multi-billion dollar corporations.

[00:08:04] Jason Wong: Yeah. I'm definitely seeing a lot of these media play now with, with how restrictive it is to do paid ads, content sites. And I mean, people are always going to be googleing.

[00:08:16] James Camp: 100%.

[00:08:17] Jason Wong: But there's just so much more competition. So it makes sense to be acquiring these properties to stay top of mind. And, and if you're the one buying these things, when they're smaller and you're able to flip into selling it to one of these gigantic companies, that's a huge flips, which brings me to my next question.

[00:08:33] Jason Wong: What is the craziest flip you've seen? Doesn't have to be yours, but anything that's .

[00:08:38] James Camp: Yeah, I can tell you it's not mine. It's uh, it's the guys from Rocket Internet and, um, and they, so if someone does know Rocket Internet is these three German brothers. They sort of build copycat websites in different markets.

[00:08:54] James Camp: And so the, and I don't want to butcher the story. So anyone can go look it up if they want, but essentially, um, they... Ebay [00:09:00] had not gone into eBay, Germany yet had not done that market. So Rocket Internet brothers went and built eBay Germany. And in three months, I think sold to eBay for $90 million.

[00:09:09] James Camp: Right. And, you know, and they obviously got it going and got it moving. Right. But then we just went to eBay and sold to them for, I think, $90 million. So my point is, is that like part of the, part of this is trying to be a little bit strategic in your, for your acquirer? Um, cause I think that if you can build something really cool or buy something cool.

[00:09:28] James Camp: Um, there's more upside on the sale. I just I'm working on a consulting agreement now or just on a consulting agreement with a very large venture backed company that is buying Instagram profiles and they're going to buy up these Instagram profiles and they're not even going to change the Instagram accounts to their accounts. They're going to continue to just keep them completely agnostic of their brand.

[00:09:49] James Camp: And conceptually the idea there is that they just want to start owning the media. They want to start owning the narrative. And so when they, they won't do promoted posts on there, they won't do ad like posts. They will just make sure that the people in [00:10:00] the photos are wearing their clothing. Right. And they'll just make sure that very organically, the people in the photos on the Instagram accounts will be wearing their brands.

[00:10:08] James Camp: And so like, and they're going to. That's perfect example of them owning the backend. So that's a, that's not a flip for them, but it's a perfect example of like one person owning something. There's probably someone selling shout-outs making 5,000 bucks a month off this Instagram account. And now this billion dollar companie's is going to buy it and it's gonna be worth so much, so much more to them.

[00:10:25] James Camp: So anyway, that's a little tangential, but I think is interesting to go along with that.

[00:10:28] Jason Wong: Yeah. I mean, I've seen this a lot. Um, even back in the day, it's like 2013 when I was really heavy into Instagram, a lot of big companies would buy these as a new publication channel. Like it's their content website. And it makes sense for like a company, like a designer brand, just constantly getting your clothing in front of people's eyes.

[00:10:49] Jason Wong: It's more than enough than selling a shout-out for four or five grand, like more than enough. Um, and you know, that's sick. I love the eBay story and it really shines light [00:11:00] onto like how there's so much opportunity in different markets if you just take a concept that works well in America or like in Asia and bring it to Europe. I've seen so many people do that.

[00:11:12] Jason Wong: Um, some really good examples out of China are like brands or, um, concepts that work really well in the US they just made it Chinese. Or they, your origin super app. And they're, they're unicorns. They're unicorns that you have never heard of that are like a Instagram and an Amazon merge together. And you're like, yeah, it works.

[00:11:34] Jason Wong: Um, so something for the viewers of this podcast to listen through, it's like, whenever you think of a business opportunity, whether you buy or you want build from scratch, if you know that there's a market that needs it outside of where it currently exists. There's always an opportunity. I'm hearing so much development in Africa.

[00:11:51] Jason Wong: Like no one ever talks about what's happening with Africa or in, in Eastern Europe. So much is getting built right now, but a lot of [00:12:00] them do exist out here already. And the more that's happening in the U S the more you can do it outside.

[00:12:06] James Camp: I used to live in Southeast Asia. I used to live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

[00:12:08] James Camp: And I can tell you that there's like a big contingent, like 500 startups: Rocket Internet. There's a big contingent of a lot of venture capital going into Southeast Asia, these massive multi-billion person markets, like people don't recognize that like in Indonesia and Malaysia alone, over a billion people, a billion people speak Bahasa.

[00:12:25] James Camp: It's a language that most people in the west don't even know exists. Right. So, um, there's a lot of like, uh, I like Food Panda, I think, get, you have all these different things that come and they take over, they basically copied the U S market idea and take you to Southeast Asia and they're blowing up massively, like massively, massively massive.

[00:12:44] James Camp: So you're spot on. I'm a firm believer in that. I'm a firm believer that there's like an opportunity. Uh, competition also doesn't scare me at all. Not because I'm like such a monster, but because competition like, like implies there's a healthy market, you know, there's like a healthy, you know, product market fit.

[00:12:59] James Camp: [00:13:00] There's demand. So yeah, so I'm, I'm I'm agree with everything you just said.

[00:13:03] Jason Wong: Yeah, no, absolutely. The other thing I wanted to ask you about going back to flipping websites is how much do you actually go back into, you know, repaint the house and, you know, in the same metaphor, like I buy a website for let's just say $20,000.

[00:13:19] Jason Wong: Uh, at that range, realistically, how much more do you need to put in to make it worthwhile?

[00:13:24] James Camp: So the idea conceptually here is to find websites in that range, sort of like, I think that sub a 100K sub 200 K there's a lot of opportunity for people that are just under monetized the website. And by that, I mean, it really is paint.

[00:13:37] James Camp: I mean, it's switching an ad network. It's adding an email list, right? Like in terms of like capital it's more. A little more sweat equity it's um, in a house you'd call it like a forced equity, right? Like by putting the effort into it, um, you'd create a lot more equity in the backend and it's not like necessarily a ton of capital.

[00:13:54] James Camp: Um, I think there's a business that we're, that I, that I do. I don't want to disclose the exact name of, because on February [00:14:00] 9th, which is like in three days or six days, we close on the sale of it. But that like that one was a great business already working doing mid six figures a year. That one is like, and the founder stayed on board and I partnered up with him and we sort of rebuilt a bunch of stuff.

[00:14:13] James Camp: Built new funnels, built everything, you know, like that was a whole different beast. But I think for a lot of stuff that people look at, um, right now that I talk about it's, it's, I don't know, a couple thousand bucks, a couple hundred bucks. Right. You, you know, you could write the content yourself, you could be paying for content, you could build backlinks yourself.

[00:14:30] James Camp: You could, you know, um, but in general, it's really not that much stuff. The opportunity is for finding businesses or finding websites that, uh, there are like five or six simple fixes that the original founder either overlooked or did not think were worth it, right. That can make a 2 or 3% revenue change.

[00:14:48] James Camp: And to them it doesn't make a massive difference. But if you get a 3% revenue change on six action items, you've now just increased the business by 20%. And that's like very quickly. Um, the long-term growth is a little different. It [00:15:00] can cost some money. It can cost some, you know, if you really want to double triple the traffic on a website in the long run, but really quick, the concept of web, the website, flipping stuff I talked about is finding sites that need small, quick changes that in a week or two, and maybe 10, 20 hours of effort, you can make those changes.

[00:15:15] James Camp: And all of a sudden to capture a 20-25% difference in revenue on a website. And then when you flip them, because websites and businesses sell for multiples on revenue, you get to capture a massive multiple of net revenue when you sell it. So I think it's like, that's the sort of the concept here is that you, you're not putting in a ton of capital once you buy the website.

[00:15:32] Jason Wong: Got it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And in terms of multiples, how does that differ from DTC? I know for DTC is like three X.

[00:15:39] James Camp: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So we, so we'll, we'll take like roughly a three X on the, on the business that we're selling right now. Um, it gets a little funky because there's like debt on the books and cash on the balance sheet and then there's inventory and that's.

[00:15:51] James Camp: For everyone, like I love e-commerce, it's just a different monster than, than a niche affiliate website is for sure, for sure. Um, the niche affiliate websites are going to range [00:16:00] from like a three X to like a five or six. Um, and that really is going to be dependent on... the market is getting sophisticated enough that is dependent on how easy the changes are and how passive it is. Right? So when there are websites that come on that are beautiful websites that are fantastic, and they just have like no app or like, just to have an Ad Sense ad. And it's very clear that you could double or triple the revenue in a day or two, like those sell for higher multiples because the market demands it, right.

[00:16:26] James Camp: The market understands that there's enough demand for that. And people know what changes they can make to it. Um, I remember I found an old forum post of mine. I'm 33 from when I was like 18. And I posted on a big internet marketing forum and, and it said, Hey, you guys, all you have to do. I just sold a website for $5,000.

[00:16:43] James Camp: All you have to do is get its revenue up to $500 a month and you can get 10 times the monthly net revenue for it. So to give you context, a decade ago, websites were selling for less than a year of monthly net revenue. So it's just a mind blowing how the multiples are rising. I do think that we're seeing [00:17:00] currently because of how hot equities markets have been.

[00:17:03] James Camp: We're seeing all multiples go high right now . And we may end up seeing like a smaller come down if equity markets come down and crypto keeps coming down where like capital leaves the markets a little bit and, and, and multiples get, get closer to that, like three to four and, and pull away from the five, six sort of range that I'm seeing.

[00:17:23] Jason Wong: Yeah. I'm definitely feeling everything. Super inflated, raw materials, consumer products, gas, and, uh, everything else on even like the asset side there. Just have you seen watches prices? I looked at this chart of a watch. I'm like Jesus Christ. I could have just bought a couple of those and

[00:17:43] Jason Wong: be rich.

[00:17:43] James Camp: It's funny. Cause I wanted to, I've had a couple of wins in the past couple of years. I've been like, I'm going to buy myself a nice watch and I just wear a whoop. Right. I don't know. I'm not wearing a nice watch. But every time I do that, I'm like, nah, that's dumb. I don't need that. And then I looked to your point, I look at these charts.

[00:17:56] James Camp: I'm like, wow. If I had just bought, if I had just spent the money on that [00:18:00] AP or a couple of those, a Rolex is like, it would have been the best investments in my life, you know? So I and I could've worn it.

[00:18:07] Jason Wong: If we is price to you, like use prices, I've a little sidetracked, but I saw this guy who bought a Patek for like 20, 30 grand.

[00:18:17] Jason Wong: And it's

[00:18:18] Jason Wong: like 10x.

[00:18:20] Jason Wong: It's so

[00:18:21] James Camp: crazy. Well, I'm sort of hoping... listen, I would like, I would like a new watch. So let's, let's for fingers crossed that the watch market crashes for a little bit, so I can, so I can get a nice watch it too.

[00:18:31] Jason Wong: And let's hope let's get you your first watch. Um, fingers. One last thing I want to ask you, because I know that we talked about what do you look for on a flip?

[00:18:42] Jason Wong: What kind of things you need to do, but how do you get more traffic to those sites? Or how do you maintain the leads to it, because if that dies, nothing else matters, right?

[00:18:52] James Camp: So I think that this goes back to the thing I said early on, which is that a lot about flipping is understanding just marketing and monetization, right.

[00:18:58] James Camp: And sort of, how do you apply that to whatever [00:19:00] website you're looking at? So most of the websites that I look for or talk about are receiving organic traffic. Um, and that's just because when a website that's monetized by programmatic display advertising Ad Sense, you're going to have a really hard time running paid traffic to that.

[00:19:13] James Camp: I've tried. Um, that's why I know decent amount of programmatic display. I went down this rabbit hole years ago, trying to run a traffic arbitrage, like a Bored Panda style website or a Buzzfeed. We were just getting people to click through 30 pages so they see so many ads and running Facebook traffic, and I lost my shirt and it was a nightmare.

[00:19:29] James Camp: I had to build our own ad servers, all this stuff. I learned a lot about that world. So looking for websites with organic traffic, we look for websites that if it's coming from Google, that organic search that is spread apart across lots of pages. Like healthy backlink profile is we're looking at href sat, stuff like that.

[00:19:44] James Camp: But then the other thing to think about is what are the missing traffic opportunities? And so interestingly in e-comm, retention is a major thing. So in ecom, we talk about email flows, Klaviyo flows, all this stuff, like how do we get people to come back? And how do we increase LTV or lifetime value of the customer. With the content [00:20:00] websites, people look past that. Normally you are a bridge where someone gets to an advertiser and they never see you again. Right. So my thesis has sort of been about building newsletters as well on top of these websites. So in terms of created like aggregated content newsletters, like the hustle, the morning brew, or the skim, like if you've got a website about dogs, about pugs, right?

[00:20:20] James Camp: Let's say you got a website that's all about pugs. Maybe there's an opportunity to build a newsletter about pugs on top of it or an email list. And so if that website's already getting a hundred thousand unique visitors a month and you capture 2000 of them into your, into your lead magnet, you capture 2% with your lead magnet.

[00:20:35] James Camp: You're adding 25,000 email subscribers a year to this newsletter, right? And so that becomes a conduit to get them, keep coming back to the website, the more content you put out and then linking back to the content and your newsletter, sending them back, getting more ad revenue. Maybe you sell affiliate products, maybe you sell your own DTC, um, dog collars and Frisbees and food or whatever.

[00:20:54] James Camp: Um, but you know, I think that that's sort of, one of the major opportunities is looking for websites with [00:21:00] organic traffic and then finding a way to retain that organic traffic, whether it be a community or a newsletter or maybe social media profiles to go along with that. But, um, I growing the organic growing through, through, through search, uh, I'm mediocre at SEO.

[00:21:14] James Camp: I mean, I've, I've ranked a lot of stuff. I've been on teams that are ranked amazing, amazing stuff. The people better SEO than me, but I say that to let people know that you don't have to be this phenomenal, you know, Jack, you know, a Navy seal at SEO to sort of still maintain getting traffic and finding different channels to grow it.

[00:21:31] James Camp: Um, I mean, I've grown newsletters and websites to 2 million in revenue and 3 million uniques off of Facebook groups, you know, like, and then getting into Google, uh, getting Google news approved. So any time we put out anything, we were just on the top of Google for any keyword. So, um, and it was sort of by chance, chaos that we got there.

[00:21:50] James Camp: Um, so it's, it's doable for everyone. That's my point.

[00:21:53] Jason Wong: Google news is such a life hack if you're able to get in on it. Oh yeah. Guaranteed [00:22:00] success.

[00:22:00] James Camp: A little bit gray hat, but I can tell you that a lot of the stuff about Google news is about how many contributors you have and how many you're writing. And it will tell you that there are people that I had had.

[00:22:09] James Camp: I mean, we definitely had writers that worked for us, but I also had several pen names on other websites before. Right. So Google wants to see that there's lots of people writing. It's I think lots of authors have lots of journalists have pen names anyway, where they're writing under, under multiple pseudonyms.

[00:22:22] James Camp: So, so a good little gray hat technique in terms of getting Google

[00:22:26] James Camp: news approved.

[00:22:27] Jason Wong: Good call, good call. Um, and on a final thought. What do you see is next for website flipping? I know we talked a little bit about multiple might go down, but like, what's next? Do you think there'll be a concentration on specific topics like art, crypto and NFT content website going to go up?

[00:22:47] Jason Wong: What, what's your read on what's next?

[00:22:49] James Camp: So I think from my read on it is what we're seeing is for a long Google has slowly from my experience. Is it from my is slowly transitioning from [00:23:00] massive authority websites into spreading, into like smaller little websites and the way that they're ranking content and giving traffic away.

[00:23:05] James Camp: And so it used to be that you have the, and they still crush like Mayo clinic, web MD, you know, Wikipedia, these massive authority websites that rank for everything. And that's important, but I'm seeing Google start to give a little bit more juice to smaller niche websites. And so I think in terms of trends, I think we're going to see more opportunity for small websites to do well. And Google start to try and as to, you know, you mentioned sort of Web3 and crypto and NFTs, like this is sort of the overarching thesis of society right now. It happens to be about like decentralization. And I think that like, we're going to start looking at Google, Google, start to say like, okay, these websites that we've traditionally given all the authority to maybe aren't the best

[00:23:43] James Camp: um, aren't the best authorities in this space. And then maybe a small niche blog is a better authority in this space. So, um, in term that's where I see it from a very macro perspective. In terms of niches, yeah, I'm a firm believer that all ships rise in high tide. Like you should be looking at like crypto , NFT.

[00:23:59] James Camp: I [00:24:00] think we may see another bear market in the next 12 months. We may see a dip in search volume as well, but I would look at anything that looks like there's a rising TAM, total addressable market. Um, and, and build content around or buy content and those websites buy websites that are focused on that kind of content.

[00:24:15] James Camp: Um, like for example, I, I'm a firm believer in Web3 and NFTs. I know you are as well, right. Or, uh, and so my thought is that like, even if in the next 12 months, we're not going to see some that we may see websites come for sale, where people get upset because sort of traffic dies down a little bit.

[00:24:30] James Camp: But as long as we believe, which you, I think you and I do in the long run that this is continuously bullish and there's be more people that are writing about it and reading about it. That like, that's a great opportunity if you want to ride that wave over the next, uh, next couple of years. I did this with cannabis in like 2016.

[00:24:45] James Camp: We started a pot stock website is focused on cannabis investing. And we just rode that wave and sort, and then sold that in 2020, along with a whole bunch of other websites in a little bit of a consultancy strategy firm. But my point is that like, we [00:25:00] caught traction there because we just went viral initially for like an article on whether Trump in 2016, that, that election, whether Trump would, um, legalize cannabis.

[00:25:10] James Camp: Right. Cause people are trying to search for that in terms of an investing standpoint. Um, and so, yeah, so look for like rising markets, rising TAMs, right? Like what are these, what are the overarching macro trends that you can ride? And I think that essentially, as long as you continue to put out decent content, like all gaming websites are going to keep growing.

[00:25:27] James Camp: Right. I mean, you see the MNA happening with the gaming space. Like I think there's a massive opportunity there, right? Like it's so anyways, so that's look at the. I look for these macro trends that are rising up so that like, even if you're a mediocre at your website, as long as you don't screw around, you end up sort of rising with the traffic and the trends and the search volume, that and interest that exists

[00:25:47] James Camp: online today.

[00:25:48] Jason Wong: I appreciate the insight and I am a big follower of your Twitter. You've just constantly put out bangers. Um, where can we find you with

[00:25:58] Jason Wong: James? You can find me on [00:26:00] Twitter. It said Jamison camp or James On Camp is how you spell it. Uh, or nanoflips. That's N A N O F L I P S dot com and yeah, man, as you know, Jason, I'm just like addicted to Twitter, essentially.

[00:26:13] Jason Wong: So I'm like, I tweet like an obscene obscene amount and, uh, that's probably the best place to find me for

[00:26:19] Jason Wong: now.

[00:26:19] Jason Wong: And your website, your newsletters. Incredible. I'm a big follower. Listen, I I'm a be real with you. I've watched your content. I read your content and I follow it. So thank you so much for putting all these nuggets on this show and continue doing it on your Twitter.

[00:26:36] Jason Wong: Um, appreciate you coming on.

[00:26:37] James Camp: Thanks so much for having me, man. Thank you.

[00:26:40] James Camp: You just heard an episode of the building blocks podcast. If you like what you heard subscribe below to keep hearing conversations that I have with brilliant marketers, founders, and innovators on how they built their best ideas.

[00:26:50] James Camp: Now, if you want to learn how you can turn your best ideas and build something massive out of it. Visit my website [00:27:00] bbclass.co or follow my Twitter @eggroli.

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